BEHEMOTH - White Wine, Black Metal
Written by: Tom Wilson @thetomwilsonexperiment - Sense Music Media | Friday 16th September 2022
Talking Cancel Culture and Online Outrage with Nergal
Frontman for Polish black metal iconoclasts BEHEMOTH, Nergal might have looked relaxed as he lounged on the couch during our interview, but as you’re about to read, he’s still got plenty to say. Leukemia couldn’t stop him, and neither could the church. Hell, he’s dealing with three different lawsuits right now. With the release of BEHEMOTH’s 12th album, Opvs Contra Natvram, he launched into cancel culture and social media outrage, so if you’re easily offended, you might want to strap in …
What is it with black metal musicians and wine? [Laughs] I love it! I feel like I’ve noticed a trend.
I’ll tell you. I’m 45 now, so my memory is not as sharp as it used to be, so sometimes I just go to the bar and I forget what I like, and then I remind myself. I’ve got this formula in my head. “I like my metal black, and my wine white.” If you remember that formula, you can never go wrong, you know? If you fuck it up and say, “I like my metal white …” ugh! If you hear me saying that, please shoot me, alright?
I interviewed the singer for WATAIN … We had a great chat earlier this year. We were talking about shock value, and we got talking about that band BRASS AGAINST … [The singer] pulled a guy onstage while they were playing RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE’s Wake Up, dropped trou and pissed on his face in front of tens of thousands of people, and we were like, “That’s the coolest thing ever,” because, all of a sudden, she was on the front page of every music press across the planet. The power of shock.
I’m a fan of all kinds of weirdness, and that’s, I guess, why I ended up in this business, and that’s why I’m fucking struggling and running all those lawsuits that are fucking happening, that are ongoing, simultaneously – three now, lawsuits against me. I know what shock value is, but I don’t really deliberately do stuff like that. Sometimes I do stuff that I know is going to piss off some stupid … some boring cunts, and it does happen. Like, three days ago, I was cut out of social media and whatever, and my first post, flying in back to Poland … I had this photo of mine that I looked like a retard, and I posted [Stephen Hawkins’] photo next to me, and made a caption, “Now who’s the genius?” And man, there’s always these people that just don’t get it. They never fucking get it. If there’s anyone that I’m making fun of, it’s me, because I look like shit. It doesn’t mean that I don’t respect the brilliant mind that’s next to me … Where’s the distance, man? Where’s the fucking … sense of humour, basically? It’s gone. So when you talk about shock value, fucking hell … I’m no stranger to battling with any kind of censorship throughout my life, you know, and sadly, I must say, every now and then, I must compromise in order to get things going and moving. It’s no fun. I must say, what’s happening these days with all the cancel culture movements that are full of shit, and it’s going in no good direction, I must admit, I’m quite terrified, you know? Myself, WATAIN, all the brilliant free-speaking, liberty-oriented, “fuck the world” bands … Just imagine, go back to fucking early 70s, late 60s … when punk rock starts. Imagine you take that and put it into today’s standards. It’s not happening! Everyone is fucking cancelled! And I’m not saying about Sid Vicious – obviously, he was a fucking junkie, he was nuts – but just think about it that way. That’s a cool experiment. Anyone can do it. Imagine there are smartphones in the backstage of BLACK SABBATH, LED ZEPPELIN, THE DOORS, you name it … MILES DAVIS, you name it. Imagine there’s smartphones and someone is recording it. These guys, all cancelled. There’s no culture … You can’t use those standards, you know, and just impose them on what was thirty years ago, and accuse those people … “They were the villains,” or whatever. No, it was different times, and you were not even around, so shut the fuck up.
“How dare this thing 30 years ago not subscribe to today’s constantly shifting moral standards!” These people clearly would not survive a G.G. Allin show, and it shows.
That’s what I mean, you know? And it’s so simple to me. If you don’t like something, just don’t enter the venue. Don’t buy a ticket. Does anyone force you to do that? Never! So again, fuck off. You don’t like titties? Look the other way! You don’t like dicks? Don’t look there! No problem! But don’t fucking cancel these people, don’t castrate people, don’t put them in jail. I mean, Jesus fucking Christ, I was so relieved that the Johnny Depp thing ended the way it ended, because the MeToo thing is another story. I mean, don’t get me wrong … The initial ideas of some of those movements – like MeToo, cancel culture, there’s a few more – the initial ideas are probably good, but the problem is, when people don’t use the tool, they abuse the tool. They use it for the wrong reasons. I dare say, 90%, 80% of cases, it’s abusive, you know? Quoting Winston Churchill, what he said in the 40s when England was defending against the fucking Nazis, he would say, “Just beware, because today’s anti-fascists will become tomorrow’s fascists.” Just think about those words, you know? I bet that is what is happening these days, because some of the rules, some of the censorship – social media, anything – is like, “Seriously, you’re cutting me out? You didn’t even question it. You didn’t interrogate it. You didn’t even double check. You don’t know what my intentions are!” Sadly, in most cases, it’s not even people, it’s fucking robots. It’s an algorithm deciding [puts on robot voice] “wrong, right, wrong, right, wrong, right.” Sorry man, I’m not buying that. If someone’s going to cancel me for what I’m saying, please fucking do, and then fuck you.
… There is the David Ellefson thing happening now, as you’re probably aware, right? Again, I don’t fucking get it, man. The guy is being pictured as some fucking villain, man, and I’m looking around, like, “Hey, gents, throw a stone, first one, who never jerked off to a photo or a video of your female friend who sent it to you!” I did that numerous times, and I still do that, and hella good fun! [Laughs] Wanna cancel me for that? Please do. Fuck you. When things happen consensually, I mean, come on. Adult meets adult, you know? And we have sex here in this room, or through this [gestures to the Zoom call], let’s just say we are gay, you know, and we play with each other, but we don’t publish that, you know? It’s cool. If you publish that, then you’re a fucking pig. Please don’t do that. But it’s not my fault. What did I do wrong? Nothing. And yet, the guy is fucking banished. For what? I’m not buying that … This is another signa temporum, sign of the times … These days, you, as a public person, you as a role model or a fucking hero or whatever, you name it … an icon, whatever … a public person, a stage persona … You’re not even allowed to make any mistakes. I mean, I do err man. I make mistakes fucking every day. Sometimes I know I go too far. Sometimes my jokes are like, “Maybe I crossed a line? Maybe not. Let’s see!” If I did, some of my jokes were not the best ones, I admit. Some were really bad. I’m sorry. I’m sorry, I’m only a human being. Does that mean that I should be cancelled? “You’re done!” No, I’m not transparent. I’m not a priest, although those are the worst … I’m just a human being, you know? The only difference is that every now and then I go onstage and I might be recognised here and there. That’s it. That’s the only difference. Every morning, I take a dump, just like you. I brush my teeth, just like you. I jerk off to my female friend who just sent me a video, just like you! I’m no different! So please, do not fucking judge me, because you don’t know me. And, if I ever make mistake, please have a reflection before you call the Nazi police of Facebook or Instagram that this guy should be cancelled or his account should be taken down or call the police or whatever … [Call me] a pedo, a fucking nazi, a misogynist … No, I’m none of that, and I’ve never been, so shut the fuck up … and fuck off.
I love that whole thing of, “Oh no, you made a mistake fifteen years ago and we found out about it. Now you’re screwed!” Fucking everyone has. It’s called “growing up.” [Laughs]
I’m forty-five, and I’m still, every now and then, I happen to be an idiot. I hope that I’m maturing. I hope that I’m growing up. I hope that I’m a better person than I was ten years ago … I hope, I’m not sure. But I do this work every day. And still, I won’t say, “Hey guys, I will never, ever do anything … I won’t ever offend you.” No. In the first place, I will be fucking myself, and I will speak my mouth, and I will always choose the righteous things … Maybe it is not righteous to you, but if I support Ukraine – fuck Putin’s Russia – support women’s rights, and so on and so on, this is righteous to me, okay? You may not like it. You may find it offensive. But deal with it. It’s not my problem. You deal with it. So, that leads us to the next thing. Are there things in the ether that bother me, or that could, really deeply, profoundly disturb me? Yes, there are. And if they touch me, you know what I do, to anyone who has those kinds of problems and maybe hates me or whatever? Work on yourself. Go to fucking therapy! Jerk off! There’s many ways to become a better person than just to judge someone else, so you can feel better. No, you’re no better than me. We’re all equally fucked up. What you can do, you can invest in yourself, and start with yourself, and do this first [makes a “centre yourself” gesture], and stop judging other people, because you are not them. You are not in their heads. You don’t know what they went through, and so on. The list never ends. So please, before you call someone this or that, before you press delete or call Zuckerberg or Göring or whoever is in charge of the social media … Before you do that, have a reflection. Count to ten. There’s many ways to cool down, cool down, relax. Go for a jog! It helps a lot. [Laughs]
Opvs Contra Natvram is out September 16th on Nuclear Blast.
